BCBA for Autism: When Therapy Ends & What to Do

If you’ve ever watched your kid do amazing in a structured program and then panicked about what happens the day that program ends, you already know the fear I’m talking about. Our son Michael is 36, level three autism, nonverbal and has been through more transitions than I can count. Every single time, the same question hits me and my wife. What happens when autism therapy ends and there’s no more 30-hours-a-week safety net? I sat down with Glenn Carter. Everybody who works with him just calls him Mr. Glenn, a BCBA with over 15 years of hands-on experience, to talk through exactly that. What he told me changed how I think about support for the rest of Michael’s life.

Key Points:

• What happens when autism therapy ends is one of the scariest questions parents face. Kids who thrived on 20-30 hours a week of structured ABA can regress fast once that structure disappears.
• A 15-year BCBA veteran, Glenn Carter says the fix isn’t more artificial reinforcement, it’s helping people find real, natural motivation in the world around them.
• For nonverbal or higher-support adults, the most powerful “intervention” is often just relationship-building: Joining their scripting, mirroring their sounds, giving them attention on their terms.
• Parents can protect their kid’s progress by keeping a simple written record of “what worked”, it becomes a lifeline for whoever supports them next.

Meet Glenn Carter: A BCBA Built for the Hard Cases

Here’s the thing nobody tells you when your kid starts intensive ABA: A lot of that early progress is built on artificial reinforcement. Tokens, star charts, “do this, then you get that.” For a lot of our kids, that if-then relationship isn’t something they picked up naturally the way typical kids do it had to be explicitly taught. And that’s fine, that’s the whole point of behavioral therapy in those early years.

But Glenn made a point that stuck with me. He said the real skill of a good BCBA isn’t building those artificial systems, it’s knowing how and when to take them back out. The goal, as he put it, is going “full circle” back to things that happen naturally in the world, because those are the things that actually carry someone through a good life. When a program ends and nobody ever did that fading-out work, of course things fall apart. The scaffolding just got pulled away with nothing underneath it.

Why Is My Autistic Adult Becoming Aggressive or Struggling With Peers?

Glenn shared a story from J13, the nonprofit my wife and I helped start here in Austin, that hit close to home. Michael was having friction with another community member pushing buttons, in the literal sibling-rivalry sense, because that was his way of getting attention. The other person kept getting corrected “stop that, don’t do that” over and over, until their whole day became a string of being told they were doing something wrong.

Instead of treating it as a behavior problem to extinguish, Glenn looked at it as an unmet need for connection. He taught Michael’s peers to make sounds back and forth with him and taught Michael, through his voice output device, how to respond to his peer’s favorite scripted phrases. Once the two of them had a shared way to interact, the “problem behavior” mostly just… stopped mattering. That’s the difference between managing a behavior and actually meeting the need underneath it.

What Can Parents Do Before Services Run Out?

This is the part I wish someone had told me twenty years ago. Glenn’s advice is simple but genuinely underused: keep a two- or three-page document of what has actually worked. Not clinical jargon plain language. “When he was seven, mornings were a nightmare, we tried this and it worked.” That document does two things for the next professional who comes into your kid’s life. It gives them a fallback if things regress and it tells them what kind of strategies your kid actually responds to, so they’re not starting from zero.

How Do You Communicate With a Nonverbal Adult With Autism?

One thing I’ve watched Glenn do with Michael over and over is just… wait. Michael’s pace is his own pace. Sometimes that’s five minutes, sometimes it’s half an hour. Glenn doesn’t force it. He said it plainly. Michael doesn’t have a way to tell him “speed up” or “slow down” or “I need a break” and there’s no easy intervention that teaches that overnight. So instead of forcing compliance, Glenn just stays responsive. If Michael’s behavior is communicating “I need a break,” the answer is “sure, let’s take a break,” no drama attached. As long as the must-do parts of the day get done, the pace is up to Michael.

What If the BCBA Doesn’t Know What to Do?

This might be my favorite part of the conversation. Glenn talked about three tiers of intervention: things backed by strong research that he’s confident in, emerging strategies he’s testing out and his words “the college try,” where he flat-out doesn’t know if it’ll work but the problem needs an attempt anyway. He said the more he admits “I don’t actually know what to do here,” the more useful information he gets back from parents and caregivers. That kind of honesty is rare in this field and it’s exactly what you want from someone supporting your kid for the long haul.

What You’ll Learn

• Why artificial reinforcement (tokens, charts) has to eventually be phased out, not just maintained forever
• What happens when autism therapy ends without a plan for that transition
• How relationship-based strategies can defuse conflict between higher- and lower-support individuals
• Why a simple written “what worked” document protects your kid across every future transition
• How to read nonverbal communication as a request for a break, not defiance
• Why a good BCBA should be willing to say “I don’t know” and what to do with that honesty
• How pairing individuals with different support needs can build real community, not just supervised proximity

Notable Quotes

• “That year began in 2009. And so I think it’s maybe been the longest year ever.” -Glenn Carter (00:56)
• “We have to build in these artificial reinforcers to help a child navigate through their day… but really what I’ve got to look for… is where things are happening in the natural environment.” -Glenn Carter (04:49)
• “It’s almost changing your therapeutic hat from ‘I’m trying to teach you something’ to ‘oh, we’re just having fun together.'” -Glenn Carter (05:34)
• “If I could just get a two or three page document, these are the things that worked really well.” -Glenn Carter (06:13)
• “There’s no drama here… as long as we get those things done, we can do it at whatever pace you like.” -Glenn Carter (09:29)
• “This is not when I’m here, you do this thing perfectly. It’s that I’m trying to establish cultures… that occur when I’m not here that are healthy for the community.” -Glenn Carter (11:46)
• “How can I give you something? How can I enrich your life? How can we make your life stronger?” -Glenn Carter (12:21)
• “The more I say, ‘I don’t know what to do, this is what I’m thinking,’ the more helpful insight I get from the parents.” -Glenn Carter (16:03)

Resources & Links

• The Magnolia School (Lakeway, TX) – a school Glenn founded for learners transitioning out of intensive early-intervention therapy toward more independence.
• J13 (Austin, TX) – the nonprofit Mike Carr co-founded for individuals with higher support needs who often don’t qualify for other community programs.
• Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis, “To Eat Too Many Donuts and Take Long Naps” – a foundational 1980s paper on the over-controlled daily lives of individuals with intellectual disabilities, referenced by Glenn in the interview.
• Howdy Homemade – the ice cream store chain featured in the two prior episodes of Autism Labs, providing employment for individuals with special needs.

Timestamped Outline

• 00:05 Introduction to the episode and why this conversation matters for higher-support families
• 00:56 Glenn Carter’s background: England, UT Austin, becoming a BCBA
• 02:28 Founding the Magnolia School and returning to work with adults
• 04:08 Why artificial reinforcement is necessary early on and why it has to fade
• 06:13 What parents can document to help future providers
• 07:50 Michael’s story: Patience, pacing and reading nonverbal communication
• 08:52 The J13 story: Building friendship instead of correcting behavior
• 11:46 Behavior analysis of culture and building community that outlasts the therapist
• 13:11 Why admitting “I don’t know” leads to better outcomes
• 14:33 The three tiers of intervention: proven, emerging and “the college try”
• 17:09 Wrap-up and preview of part two: medications and working with other professionals

FAQ

---

Transcription:

Mike Carr (00:05): Well, welcome back everyone to another episode of Autism Labs. In the last two episodes, we talked to the founder and a partner of Howdy Homemade, a series of ice cream stores that provide employment to the special needs population. But for those of you listening who have a lower-functioning, higher-support adult, maybe someone with level three autism or other complex special needs, you probably watched those episodes and thought, “I’m not sure that’s my kid.” And I think they could do it, with the right support. But today I have an interview with a real, live BCBA, someone who’s been in the trenches with lower-support folks and has all kinds of stories and experiences I thought would be interesting for you to hear. And at the end of the episode, if you have any questions for Glenn or for me, just DM us and we’ll be happy to respond.

Mike Carr (00:49): So with that, I want to introduce you to Glenn Carter. Glenn, why don’t you introduce yourself, tell us a little about your background and experience and then we’ll have a conversation.

Glenn Carter (00:56): Although my legal name is Glenn Carter, professionally I go by Mr. Glenn, that’s how the people I work with refer to me. Mike said I’m a BCBA. I started my career working at a school for children with autism in England. It was extremely well funded, but there were some internal issues that meant the service the kids got wasn’t quite what I wanted. I met my wife teaching there and she said, “Why don’t you come live in America for a year?” I said sure that year began in 2009 and it’s maybe been the longest year ever. When I got here to Texas with her, she got her master’s at UT in developmental disabilities. Shortly after, I completed the coursework and supervision requirements for my BCBA. Then I became really interested in what happens to students after therapy ends. You start with kids working 30 hours a week, they make great progress and then there’s this gray area where they still need some therapeutic help, but not the original intensity. It’s almost a transition out of services toward independence. So I opened a school out in Lakeway called the Magnolia School. It’s still operating, Megan runs it now. If that profile fits your learner, I’d definitely recommend reaching out. I left that school at the end of last year to spend more time with my family. I have two children through foster care who need my attention more than other kids need it. Now I’m working with individuals again, back with adults and that’s brought me a lot of joy. It’s been really interesting to see the full journey of early intervention, then elementary and middle school and now adults and to make changes to my practice based on who I’m working with.

Mike Carr (02:46): You brought up a couple of things everyone watching is interested in. First, you’ve been doing this a while you’re not a newly minted BCBA. Fifteen-plus years, a master’s in the field, lots of boots-on-the-ground experience and that does make a difference. The other thing you mentioned that’s so interesting a lot of parents have experienced this. When your kids are in school or intense BCBA therapy, getting 20-30 hours a week in a structured environment, things go pretty well even through hiccups because the staff and supports are in place. Then they age out, or therapy ends and things start going the wrong direction. Our son did great in school and afterward we were very concerned about exactly what you’re describing. We took all kinds of steps to make sure he still had the supports he needed to keep growing, not be isolated. In your experience the big watch-outs, the things you’ve learned working with so many parents in different settings if someone can’t afford or access everything that’s needed once therapy winds down, what are the key things you’d tell parents to keep addressing? Any stories that illustrate that?

Glenn Carter (04:08): Yeah. One of the big things when a child is referred to me, they typically haven’t learned the life lessons other kids pick up naturally from their environment. So whatever reinforces behavior in the world, that child isn’t as responsive to it as other kids are. When you do behavioral therapy, you put in artificial reinforcement “earn ten tokens, then we go down the slide.” That’s important, because for many kids even the basic relationship of “if I do this, I get that” has to be explicitly taught, when for other kids it’s just natural. So we build in these artificial reinforcers to help a child get through their day and do the things necessary for learning and development. Where we can fall down is in not removing those artificial reinforcers later going full circle back to the things that happen naturally in the world, because those are what actually guide you through a good life. One thing I’ve learned working with adults now is I don’t reach for those old tools as often they’re more like break-glass-in-emergency tools. What I’m really looking for as an analyst is: where are things happening naturally, what’s genuinely powerful for this person? For some of the adults I work with, one of the biggest reinforcers is just non-communicative speech making sounds back and forth, or joining in if someone’s scripting. What they’re really asking is “can you give me some attention?” So you shift your therapeutic hat from “these words need to have meaning” to “we’re just having fun together.” You develop that back-and-forth. As for what parents can do I regularly ask the adults I work with, or their families, what interventions worked best. If I could just get a two- or three-page document of “these are the things that worked really well” like, “when he was seven we had real trouble getting him dressed, we set up this thing and now it’s fine” that gives me two things. One, if there’s a relapse, I already know an intervention that’s worked before. Two, it puts me in the ballpark of the strategies this person responds to, so I know how to approach a new scenario.

Mike Carr (06:58): Two things you mentioned that I’ve observed firsthand, because you’ve worked with our son Michael, who’s 36, level three autism, nonverbal, has seizures and pica behavior and still wears an adult diaper at night a variety of challenges. One is how, with nonverbal communication, you use patience and slow down. Michael’s tempo is sometimes “just sit for five minutes,” sometimes half an hour. I’ve learned so much watching you lean into that if Michael doesn’t want to do something, you find out why, or give him time to reset and then he comes back more productive than if you’d forced it. The second thing is how different everyone is you have to learn each person and interventions may change based on the day and the behavior. Just because one intervention works for someone doesn’t mean it’ll work for someone else in the exact same setting. Can you share a story or two from J13? For those who don’t know, J13 is a nonprofit here in Austin that my wife and I and a few others started, for people who need higher levels of support and typically get excluded from other programs. We also welcome people with moderate or low support needs, because pairing someone lower-support maybe verbal with someone higher-support, like our son, they can accomplish things together neither could do alone. It’s not all-low-support or all-high-support; that’s where J13 comes from.

Glenn Carter (08:52): On your first point there’s an old paper from the 1980s in the Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis called “To Eat Too Many Donuts and Take Long Naps.” It describes how controlled the world is for people with intellectual disabilities “do this, do this, you must do that, no, put that down” and how they rarely get to experience ordinary human things like “I’m just a bit tired” or “I fancy eating three bags of chips because they taste great.” With Michael, he doesn’t have a way to tell me to speed up or slow down or take a break. That’s not something I can just teach directly, it’s more that I have to be responsive to him. He’s communicating through his behavior that he needs a break, so we take a break no drama. We talk about the things that must get done in the routine; as long as those happen, we go at whatever pace he likes. To go back to J13 Michael was having some trouble with another community member. Again, it came down to attention. He was pushing their buttons, the way a sibling might, because that was his best strategy for getting their attention. I felt for the other community members, because they kept doing things they shouldn’t and kept hearing “stop that, don’t do that, I’ve told you.” Their ratio of positive to corrective feedback got way out of whack just from that dynamic. So we reset and thought about how to build an actual friendship between them. Michael likes to make certain sounds; the other person has scripted phrases around high-fives and “you’re going down, buddy,” repeated often throughout the day. So I taught each of them the other’s language, the other individual learned to make sounds back and forth with Michael and Michael learned, through his voice output system, to respond with those scripted phrases. When you can back off and just watch the two of them do it on their own, the smiles, the body language that’s true enjoyment of each other’s company. It doesn’t matter what they’re saying. It’s them communicating how they like to connect and my job is to help them do more of that. It reminds me of the idea of a “behavior analysis of culture” , something I first learned from Sigrid Glenn, a professor at the University of North Texas. She describes culture this way: if two people do something together, then one leaves and a third person starts doing that same thing with the person who stayed and that person also eventually leaves and a fourth joins the original two people are gone, but the behavior persists across the community. That’s culture. That’s what I’m trying to build as a behavior analyst not “when I’m here, you do this perfectly,” but establishing something healthy that continues in the community when I’m not there. Seeing that happen with Michael and this other young man has been really lovely. It’s not just about stopping head-hitting or self-injury, it’s “how can I enrich your life, how can we make it stronger?” Because there are things we can’t change Michael will probably always need a diaper at night; we’re unlikely to find an intervention for that. There’s an element of accepting where someone’s at and then focusing energy on what we can change, because that’s what makes life richer and more fulfilling for everyone, parents, professionals and the client.

Mike Carr (13:11): Your problem-solving approach is so interesting. Talk more about the mindset behind it. I’ve worked with a lot of BCBAs and other therapists and there’s often reluctance to admit “I don’t know how to solve that,” because they worry it suggests they’re not skilled enough. Your attitude seems to be that it’s not an admission of defeat it’s an opportunity to pivot. Not knowing how to solve one specific problem doesn’t mean there’s no solution; there might be a different path that gets partway there, or works in most situations. Share that mindset with us  and any examples successful or not that would help parents understand how to approach the tough challenges they haven’t solved yet.

Glenn Carter (14:33): In school, you learn about the power of reinforcement, how it applies to all individuals for all behaviors and that if you identify the right reinforcer, you can shape behavior. That holds true in behavioral science, but this is applied behavioral science. The real world and there are tiers to what we can actually do. The first tier is interventions with robust research behind them: I know how they work, where people tend to trip up and how to correct for that. You want to stay in that zone as much as possible, but reality doesn’t always allow it. The second tier is emerging interventions, the current zeitgeist, what people are discussing at conferences, what keeps your mind engaged: “let me try this principle and see if it works.” The third tier is the college try “I’m not sure I’m doing this right, but we have a problem, so let’s give it our best shot.” For all three tiers, being able to communicate clearly with parents matters: “here’s something I feel very secure about and why,” versus “here’s something I’m still learning and think will work,” versus “I’m really not sure, here’s where I’m starting.” When the research is strong, I need less outside information. When it’s not, I need more and the more I say “I don’t know what to do, here’s what I’m thinking,” the more helpful insight I get back from parents and other people working with the client. The other part of tier three is reaching out to other professionals, speech therapists, OTs, doctors. For example: “I’ve noticed every time they’re aggressive, they also have a fever. I’m not sure I’m the right person to solve this, because the fever seems bigger than the aggression. Can we go back to a doctor and look at that?” In the meantime we still address the aggression, but we stay open that it may not be the long-term fix and keep working with other professionals toward a real solution.

Mike Carr (17:09): That’s wonderful. So here’s what we’re going to do, we’ll stop here for this week and continue with Glenn next week, getting into working with other professionals and the impact of medications. There are some real insights there, especially with our son, who’s on four different medications and other experiences Glenn’s had. Thank you so much for watching this week and come back next week for part two. Thank you.